Curse

[DE] · Jun 18, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem with the ele is - that it's still an ele, no matter if you throw Splinter/AR on it.

Yes. It's an ele that can output as much damage as a mesmer nuker could WHILE supplying the frontline with additional damage.

Quote:

His main feat is still non-armour ignoring damage.

As is the mesmer nukers damage.

Quote:

It's only good feature is (well outside of stupidly easy blindness spam, wards and some water goodies - which aren't really nuking material) is the huge energy pool. That you can actually keep up.

Elementalists can be versatile. They can also run some very handy bitch bars while maintaining more DPS than a mesmer nuker. A straight up ele nuker is crap in PvE. A straight up mesmer nuker is just as bad. As far as energy management goes, Attunements are a bit weaker than Auspicious depending on your bar but a decent spec in energy storage and not failing at e-management more than makes up for that.

Quote:

Random Necro Stuff

Necros are good at C-Spacing hexes while maintaining weakness and cracked armor (in HM) on most of the mob. They have a pretty good DPS but how effective they are depends on your entire teams set-up.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 18, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by '[DE

As is the mesmer nukers damage.

Might wanna check again on that.

[[cry of pain] is armour ignoring.

[DE] · Jun 18, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Might wanna check again on that.

[[cry of pain] is armour ignoring.

I was referring to the mesmer nuker bars in this thread, which all that I've seen, do not include CoP.

Chthon · Jun 18, 2008, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Might wanna check again on that.

[[cry of pain] is armour ignoring.

I'm working on a Cry of Pain bar right now....

isamu kurosawa · Jun 18, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

I was referring to the mesmer nuker bars in this thread, which all that I've seen, do not include CoP.

He never posted one. All he mentioned was [[assassins promise] and "chaos" nukes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm working on a Cry of Pain bar right now....

A tip,[[auspicious incantation], [[glyph of renewal],[[arcane echo] and [[cry of pain] if you want more damage than utility.

Your team mates can then spec /mes and mimic your glyph themselves if they have room.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 18, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

Might wanna check again on that.

[[cry of pain] is armour ignoring.

Not at you, isamu, because you're awesome; but to mesmer 'nukers' in general... Cry of Pain does not make you a better 'nuker' than an ele/necro. Cry of Pain is a non-linked skill, and can be better used on Eles and Necros who - alongside infinite energy - bring more useful stuff to the table.

@ Chthon - essentially, the build would be about churning out as much CoP as possible, finding the energy to do so, and doing something at least as useful as Ward vs Melee/Enfeebling Blood/*insert usual Ele~Nec utility here* with what you've got left to work with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

By "good" I mean a build that does something unconditionally useful in PvE, and does it at least as well as all other classes.

I dunno why, but Me/N seems to be calling when I think of a suitable build - whatever echo-chain it is I want for CoP, Auspicious + [[chilblains] for energy, and [[Enfeebling Blood] is still pure awesome even at a low spec.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 19, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Cry of Pain is a non-linked skill, and can be better used on Eles and Necros who - alongside infinite energy - bring more useful stuff to the table.

shhh the poor mesmers will have even more trouble getting a team if that gets out.

Personally though i rarely use a bar based around CoP because it shines more with 2+people using it and i h/h mostly these days.
heroes are even more useful for a mesmer because you can tailor their builds to fit your own and vice versa. The discord build i posted is a good example.

PUG play on a mesmer is difficult because you have no control over what your team take. So for that running either a dom or illus (wandering and clumsiness are now amazing in pve btw) build fueled by [[glyph of renewal] would work best.
glyph in general is more useful than [[echo] because of its versatility and lack of downtime.
works well with skills such as:

[[shatter enchantment]
[[mistrust]/[[guilt]/[[shame]
[[cry of pain]
[[cry of frustration]
[[empathy]
[[clumsiness]/[[wandering eye]

It also has great synergy with [[auspicious incantation].

[[necrosis] builds in general work well too.

It realy does depend on the area though, i have run a build based around splinter, ancestors, shatter hex, wastrels worry, inspired enchantment and fueled by offering of spirit myself in frostmaws burrows with great success.

I could go on for ages about mesmer build possibilities, alot do use other professions skills too but at least you know you will look better doing it.

Chthon · Jun 19, 2008, 04:49 AM // 04:49

I wasn't planning on discussing this build till it was finished, but it seems like the forum conversation is moving faster than I am.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

A tip,[[auspicious incantation], [[glyph of renewal],[[arcane echo] and [[cry of pain] if you want more damage than utility

Close, but not quite what I've got in mind. I'd run GoR on a E/Me (And I've been thinking about doing exactly that. But that's for another forum), but, for the Me primary, Assassin's Promise is my bet right now. It (1) allows potentially faster CoP spam than GoR, (2) recharges arcane echo after it reverts, so you can keep the double-pace spam going, (3) provides some energy to help deal with the fact that you're a mesmer, (4) recharges Auspicious frequently, which solves the rest of the energy problem, and (5) allows you to use some other longish recharge skills, Finish Him being the most appealing.

Today's draft revision was:

Assassins Promise
Arcane Echo
Cry of Pain
Finish Him
Auspicious Incantation
Conjure Nightmare
Leech Signet
Fragility

To explain the skills I didn't mention above:
Conjure Nightmare serves a double role as proc hex for CoP and a 15e spell to feed into Auspicious (which, accelerated by AP, provides a whooooole lot of energy). Leech Signet is there for an extra hard interrupt, on a fast recharge thanks to AP. It also gives me a little energy to get out of the hole if I screw up and forget to cast Auspicious or cast AP too early and fail to recharge auspicious. Fragility is a cheap, spammable proc hex for CoP if I've screwed up my AP or my energy. It also has a weak synergy with Finish Him.

Conjure Nightmare works well enough I think it gets to stay in the build permanently. Leech Signet is only situationally useful (Today it paid off in spades in frostmaw against worm bile.) so it will probably drop for most variants of the build. Fragility is probably going to get dropped as I get better at playing the build and don't need a second hex available for setting up the chain sometimes.

The damage output on this build is phenomenal, but I can hear Alex saying, "what about utility?" That's definitely a weak point right now. It's got some inherent interrupting power built into CoP, plus whatever can be put in to replace Leech Signet and Fragility. Problem is I don't see anything as potent as enfeebling blood fitting there. I tried hex-eater signet in an earlier iteration, figuring removing the 25sec recharge was a pretty good deal, but found that I'd rarely be willing to spend the time to run up and touch an ally. Conditionally useful I suppose. Some of the monster hexes are nasty enough to warrant it (Worm bile again. Last Rites of Torment also comes to mind.) Clumsiness is something of a poor man's enfeebling blood, so perhaps it's worth a try. Though I think I'd need to pull out a sup-runed hat to come up with enough attributes to make clumsiness really useful and keep everything else running OK. In the PvE-only department there's the Ebon Battle Standards, and possibly YMLAD to maybe replace leech signet as an interrupt.

Sum: I think the damage and energy management components of this build are done and working nicely. I welcome suggestions on getting the utility on par with "Ward vs Melee/Enfeebling Blood/*insert usual Ele~Nec utility here*"

upier · Jun 19, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

I was referring to the mesmer nuker bars in this thread, which all that I've seen, do not include CoP.

Actually a "mesmer nuker" is something in the lines of E-Burn, (Possibly CoP - although tbh I don't care for it, just because it needs a hex, which means I need to carry a mesmer hex!), Unnatural Signet, Spiritual Pain, with possible stuff like Shatter Hex, Shatter Ench.
All armour ignoring, and will deliver that 250+ non-conditional blast. (With the possible additional damage if the conditions are met - ench/hex)
And then you just AP it.

Now - unless you are playing with a bunch of brain-dead monkeys - you won't even need to dump all those skills on a foe. In a party of 8 - the party should be producing more then enough damage (Plus because you AP it - it's always ready!) That means that this opens up room for more utility.
So I am running this:

[build box name="upier does AP" prof=Me/A fas=8+1 dom=12+1+1 dead=10]["You Move Like A Dwarf!"]["Finish him!"][Assassin's Promise][Spiritual Pain][Unnatural Signet][Shatter Enchantment][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][Guilt][/build]
(Guilt is what I dump. I like the icon so it's being ran.)

While Gwenny and Fat-ass running this:
[build box name="upier's heroes do AP" prof=Me/A fas=6+1 dom=12+1+1 dead=10 insp=6+1][Cry Of Frustration][Energy Burn][Assassin's Promise][Spiritual Pain][Unnatural Signet][Shatter Enchantment][Power Drain][optional][/build]
Power drain/last slot are optional. But interrupts are always good - so I might as well run them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Necros are good at C-Spacing hexes while maintaining weakness and cracked armor (in HM) on most of the mob. They have a pretty good DPS but how effective they are depends on your entire teams set-up.

So you're saying that something as godly as a cursing necro should be disregarded in terms of damage because the players might suck?

sixofone · Jun 19, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Good builds, Upier!

Do you find that the heroes use AP well? (I'm surprised, is all. Seems my Heroes all are having some minor [email protected] using their skills, lately.)

upier · Jun 19, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixofone

Good builds, Upier!

Do you find that the heroes use AP well? (I'm surprised, is all. Seems my Heroes all are having some minor [email protected] using their skills, lately.)

I always thought that they ran superbly with it.
Then I was pointed out that they don't stack hexes of the same kind.
Which poses a bit of a problem. Since if I am running AP - and I spread my love (AP) around

- none of the heroes will AP the target that is already APed.
Which means you either need to wait for the heroes to AP it first - or you AP it manually.
So that's slightly tricky - but considering how well they performed even without me multitasking it - it's not a deal breaker. (Since like I said - if you don't have a brain dead team - stuff explodes. So they can put AP on something else or they can just use the skills that they have left. A lot of the time I actually don't manage to pull off MY AP - the target dies before I apply it!)
Just something you should be aware off.

(Plus the reason why I LOVE FH, YMLaD and EVAS is because the skills are insanely effective even at low ranks. You want the KDs, you want the DW, you want crippled, and you want the cracked armour - rather then just the damage of CoP where you REALLY want to have the Sunspear title as high as possible!)

maxxfury · Jun 19, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I always thought that they ran superbly with it.
Then I was pointed out that they don't stack hexes of the same kind.
Which poses a bit of a problem. Since if I am running AP - and I spread my love (AP) around

- none of the heroes will AP the target that is already APed.
Which means you either need to wait for the heroes to AP it first - or you AP it manually.
So that's slightly tricky - but considering how well they performed even without me multitasking it - it's not a deal breaker. (Since like I said - if you don't have a brain dead team - stuff explodes. So they can put AP on something else or they can just use the skills that they have left. A lot of the time I actually don't manage to pull off MY AP - the target dies before I apply it!)
Just something you should be aware off.

(Plus the reason why I LOVE FH, YMLaD and EVAS is because the skills are insanely effective even at low ranks. You want the KDs, you want the DW, you want crippled, and you want the cracked armour - rather then just the damage of CoP where you REALLY want to have the Sunspear title as high as possible!)

Ponders, can you bind all 3 AP buttons to a single key?(yours and heroes) so you can get them all to cast when you need to force cast them. (eg..bind to "C" so they all cast at once?!) just an idea^

*Jayson DVDF*

**edit :S wont let you map more skillsonto one key

oh well

upier · Jun 19, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Ponders, can you bind all 3 AP buttons to a single key?(yours and heroes) so you can get them all to cast when you need to force cast them. (eg..bind to "C" so they all cast at once?!) just an idea^

*Jayson DVDF*

**edit :S wont let you map more skillsonto one key

oh well

Jeez Jay - hadn't seen you in AGES!

Ohh and it didn't even hit me to bind AP. That might be actually smarter then me mouse clicking it!

Lordhelmos · Jun 19, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Here's what I run.

[build box name="Inepti-splode" prof=Me/N fas=8+1 Illu=12+1+1 Insp=10+1][Power Drain][Cry of Pain][Necrosis][Clumsiness][Ineptitude][Conjure Nightmare][Auspicious Incantation][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]

The build is pretty straight-forward, you hex the target up with Ineptitude and Clumsiness then AoE bomb the mob with Cry of Pain. Necrosis is a ridiculous damage skill thats easy to spam so use it to finish off targets. When you run low on energy, weapon swap to a +15-1 weapon and Auspicious your Conjure Nightmare.

Overall this build can dump over 300-400 damage into mobs constantly while still being able to maintain energy. On top of that all of the damage is armor ignorant chaos damage, making any sort of armor resistance from high level enemies absolutely useless. Clumsiness and Ineptitude also takes pressure off your party by shutting down hard hitting enemies like warrior bosses and Jotun. Just be sure to use Clumsiness and Inept on enemies that are wanding or in melee range, since the duration on them has been cut extensively.

Try this and then tell me that mesmers can't do direct damage. Clumsiness is about 90, then Cry at max sunspear is another 100 AoE, then you have ineptitude which is about 128ish. After that you can just spam Necrosis on the target since it triggers off your hexes and blind. Conjure Nightmare can also be used as a base for Necrosis.

So you got an enemy taking -8 degen, 100 AoE damage, 90 Aoe Damage on attack, then another 128+blind, and 90 dmg. every 2 seconds after that...

Yeah things die fast with this build, stupidly fast. This includes places like HM FoW, UW, etc.

Some variations of this include:

~Swapping out Clumsiness for Pain Inverter to deal large amounts of damage to AoE spiking enemies. (Drop sunspear rebirth signet for a normal rez.)

~Swapping out Power Drain for Drain Enchantment when enchantment removal is necessary.

isamu kurosawa · Jun 20, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Ponders, can you bind all 3 AP buttons to a single key?(yours and heroes) so you can get them all to cast when you need to force cast them. (eg..bind to "C" so they all cast at once?!) just an idea^

*Jayson DVDF*

**edit :S wont let you map more skillsonto one key

oh well

I have my heroes skill #1 bound to Q W E anyway. Its easy to hit all 3 at once. And with a gaming keyboad you can macro your AP, and all thiers to a single button.

Tyla · Jun 20, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Helmos, it's considerable to remove Conjure Nightmare and put in Chillblains for more energy return.

Skye Marin · Jul 01, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

No synergy needed when you can do it yourself (In PVE only of course)

Ok here is a build for fevered dreams it applies poison, bleeding, cracked armor, and deep wound. It is best to take a hench necro with. Let them hex first. If you hex a hex removal skill can be used right after you apply yours. The monster AI can tear your hex off very fast. So cover your hexes. In an ideal non hex removal area in PVE (Do the following Cast poison tip and barbed arrows now cast fevered dreams followed by shrinking and accumulated pain fire arrow and cast shatter delusion on target) PVE monsters ball up and will die very quickly. You do need all expansions and the new Eye of the North to get all the skills. If energy is a problem cast all spells with caster weapons then right before Fire switch to a bow.

[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill] [skill]Shrinking armor[/skill] [skill]Accumulated pain[/skill] [skill]Shatter Delusions[/skill] [skill]Poison Tip Signet[/skill] [skill]Barbed Arrows[/skill] [skill]Troll Unguent[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

It would work well with a Paragon too:

[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill] [skill]Shrinking armor[/skill] [skill]Hypochondria[/skill] [skill]Shatter Delusions[/skill] [skill]Chest Thumper[/skill] [skill]Barbed Spear[/skill] [skill]Maiming Spear[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Give or take some other skills. It's pretty customizable. All these skills here were picked because they each can be re-cast in less than 10 seconds. Try Cry of Pain etc for more fun.

Necro version:

[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill] [skill]Shrinking armor[/skill] [skill]Hypochondria[/skill] [skill]Shatter Delusions[/skill] [skill]Necrosis[/skill] [skill]Enfeeble[/skill] [skill]Rip Enchantment[/skill] [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

zling · Jul 01, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Actually a "mesmer nuker" is something in the lines of E-Burn, (Possibly CoP - although tbh I don't care for it, just because it needs a hex, which means I need to carry a mesmer hex!), Unnatural Signet, Spiritual Pain, with possible stuff like Shatter Hex, Shatter Ench.
All armour ignoring, and will deliver that 250+ non-conditional blast. (With the possible additional damage if the conditions are met - ench/hex)
And then you just AP it.

Now - unless you are playing with a bunch of brain-dead monkeys - you won't even need to dump all those skills on a foe. In a party of 8 - the party should be producing more then enough damage (Plus because you AP it - it's always ready!) That means that this opens up room for more utility.
So I am running this:

[build box name="upier does AP" prof=Me/A fas=8+1 dom=12+1+1 dead=10]["You Move Like A Dwarf!"]["Finish him!"][Assassin's Promise][Spiritual Pain][Unnatural Signet][Shatter Enchantment][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][Guilt][/build]
(Guilt is what I dump. I like the icon so it's being ran.)

While Gwenny and Fat-ass running this:
[build box name="upier's heroes do AP" prof=Me/A fas=6+1 dom=12+1+1 dead=10 insp=6+1][Cry Of Frustration][Energy Burn][Assassin's Promise][Spiritual Pain][Unnatural Signet][Shatter Enchantment][Power Drain][optional][/build]
Power drain/last slot are optional. But interrupts are always good - so I might as well run them.

So you're saying that something as godly as a cursing necro should be disregarded in terms of damage because the players might suck?

last time a checked a *Nuker* uses AoE damage skills. your bar is filled with single target damage skills unless Spiritual Pain's condition is met, which isnt all that often.

so anyway, the best PvE *Nuker* and perhaps purely the *Best* Mesmer currently is bar far a PvE version of the Inepitude Mesmer.
[skill]Ineptitude[/skill][skill]Epidemic[/skill](blind spread FTW!)[skill]Clumsiness[/skill][skill]Signet of Clumsiness[/skill][skill]Wandering Eye[/skill][skill]Cry of Pain[/skill][skill]Ether Nightmare[/skill][skill]Auspicious Incantation[/skill]

weretoad · Jul 02, 2008, 01:58 AM // 01:58

well since i don't have faction yet (screams!!!) i run MoR instead of AP.
this works well

MoR
CoP
CoF
mistrust
empathy
sunspear res
GoLE
shatter hex

this was modified from a wiki build and i seem to do more dmg then my Illusion Damage build which i find weird, because every gives glory to ineptitude and his cousins

isamu kurosawa · Jul 06, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

well since i don't have faction yet (screams!!!) i run MoR instead of AP.
this works well

MoR
CoP
CoF
mistrust
empathy
sunspear res
GoLE
shatter hex

this was modified from a wiki build and i seem to do more dmg then my Illusion Damage build which i find weird, because every gives glory to ineptitude and his cousins

Try replacing MoR with [[glyph of renewal] sometime. your already /e anywy. You can then use [[auspicion incantation] as energy management without being affected by its drawback. Also, firing off a 2nd cry right after the first can be devastating.